Cree Mailing List Digest
July 1997

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-> Fwd: Cree Naming Poems
     by (suppressed)@epi.epi.sc.edu
-> Question on questions
     by Ivan A Derzhanski <(suppressed)@banmatpc.math.acad.bg>
-> Re: Cree digest for 1997/07/04
     by James Wastasecoot <(suppressed)@MBnet.MB.CA>
-> Louise Papatens Brown
     by (suppressed)@wsii.com (Peter  s Gadoury)
-> Making computers that work in Cree
     by Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
-> RE: Making computers that work in Cree
     by (suppressed)@quest.oscs.montana.edu
-> New Cree Language Lesson posted
     by Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
-> Re: Making computers that work in Cree
     by Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
-> Native American Genealogy Research mailing list
     by Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
-> Re: Louise Papatens Brown
     by (suppressed)@enter.net
-> Re: Making computers that work in Cree
     by (suppressed)@enter.net
-> Making computers that work in Cree
     by (suppressed)@www.wtc.ccinet.ab.ca (Maskwachees Cultural College)
-> Re: Making computers that work in Cree
     by Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
-> Re: Making computers that work in Cree
     by Eric Brunner <(suppressed)@opengroup.org>
-> post cree indian reservations
     by (suppressed)@wsii.com (Peter  s Gadoury)
-> Dallas/Ft.Worth area cherokee class
     by Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
-> creation stories
     by "Aggelos Pouliasis" <(suppressed)@acropolis.net>
-> Re: creation stories
     by (suppressed)@enter.net


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 1997 15:54:11 -0400
From: (suppressed)@epi.epi.sc.edu
Subject: Fwd: Cree Naming Poems

Hello everyone.

I am interested in the Cree Naming Poems.  Does anyone know a good source
for a collection of them?  I teach English Composition and like to use
these poems in my poetry section.

I'd be grateful for any help.

Best regards,

Dick Norwood
Columbia, SC, USA
   *****   English Programs for Internationals   *****
*         USC   Byrnes 310, Columbia, SC  29208   USA
*         http://www.epi.sc.edu  *  epi-info@epi.sc.edu
*          (803) 777-3867   **   (803) 777-6839 (fax)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 1997 11:21:04 -0400
From: Ivan A Derzhanski <(suppressed)@banmatpc.math.acad.bg>
Subject: Question on questions

This is a question to native Cree speakers (are there many on this List?) or
very fluent ones.  I am not a Cree learner, just a linguist who has found
some Cree data relevant to his research, and is now hunting for judgements.

I found these sentences in the online course,
<http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/lesson/5.html>:

(1) _kimiwan na?_   `is it raining?'
(2) a. _ke'ya'pic na kimiwan?_   `is it still raining?'

Are the following also possible?

(2) b. _kimiwan na ke'ya'pic?_
    c. _ke'ya'pic kimiwan na?_

If so, how do (2a), (2b) and (2c) differ from one another?

How about these?  Which of them are possible, and what difference is there
between them?

(3) a. _ki'htwa'm na kimiwan?_
    b. _kimiwan na ki'htwa'm?_
    c. _ki'htwa'm kimiwan na?_

(4) a. _mwac ce'skwa na kimiwan?_
    b. _mwac kimiwan na ce'skwa?_
    c. _mwac ce'skwa kimiwan na?_

Finally, is there a word for `finally'?  How about `already'?

Very gratefully,

- -- 
"reH Sov yInej 'ej Dap yImuS,          <dOstI bA mardom-e dAnA nEkO-st,
 jagh val qaq law' jup QIp qaq puS"     do^sman-e dAnA beh az nAdAn dOst>
                 (Sheikh Muslihuddin Abu Muhammad Abdullah Saadi Shirazi)
Ivan A Derzhanski                             <(suppressed)@banmatpc.math.acad.bg>
H: cplx Iztok bl 91, 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria <http://www.math.acad.bg/~iad/>
W: Dept for Math Lx, Inst for Maths & CompSci, Bulg Acad of Sciences


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1997 09:17:52 -0400
From: James Wastasecoot <(suppressed)@MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Cree digest for 1997/07/04

At 09:57 PM 7/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>-> Question on questions
>     by Ivan A Derzhanski <(suppressed)@banmatpc.math.acad.bg>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: 4 Jul 1997 11:21:04 -0400
>From: Ivan A Derzhanski <(suppressed)@banmatpc.math.acad.bg>
>Subject: Question on questions
>
>This is a question to native Cree speakers (are there many on this List?) or
>very fluent ones.  I am not a Cree learner, just a linguist who has found
>some Cree data relevant to his research, and is now hunting for judgements.
>
>I found these sentences in the online course,
><http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/lesson/5.html>:
>
>(1) _kimiwan na?_   `is it raining?'
>(2) a. _ke'ya'pic na kimiwan?_   `is it still raining?'
>
>Are the following also possible?
>
>(2) b. _kimiwan na ke'ya'pic?_ This means, is it raining still?
>    c. _ke'ya'pic kimiwan na?_  This means, still is it raining? 

2 c. is very poor grammar.


>
>If so, how do (2a), (2b) and (2c) differ from one another?

They don't really.


>How about these?  Which of them are possible, and what difference is there
>between them?
>
>(3) a. _ki'htwa'm na kimiwan?_ 
literally it means, again is it raining? But this is correct. 
>    b. _kimiwan na ki'htwa'm?_ 
means is it raining again?  this is correct also. 

>    c. _ki'htwa'm kimiwan na?_
This is poor, again, it is raining, no?

>(4) a. _mwac ce'skwa na kimiwan?_
not yet, is it raining? I don't know why a cree speaker would ask this. I
guess rain is expected. But  in this case a more likely sentence would be:
asa na pe kimowan? Is it beginning to rain now? OR, asa na kimowan? is it
raining (now) yet? 
>    b. _mwac kimiwan na ce'skwa?_
it is not raining - yet? very poor, would not use this. 

>    c. _mwac ce'skwa kimiwan na?_
not yet, is it raining? very poor. 

>Finally, is there a word for `finally'?  How about `already'?

ahow! asseye! 

already - asseye ki htohtam, he did it already. 

>Very gratefully,

Good luck with your cree.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1997 12:12:09 -0400
From: (suppressed)@wsii.com (Peter  s Gadoury)
Subject: Louise Papatens Brown

>Louise are there any Gadoury's in the Algonquian band in Northern Quebec
I am aware that Gadoury is a french name and that i am a Metis,but i am
trying to find out what band of Cree i am from.
Thank you

       Knowing what band i come from,hopefully will explain my eccentricity

             Thom Gadoury


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1997 12:38:08 -0400
From: Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
Subject: Making computers that work in Cree

I'm now in contact with the 'internationalization' engineers at Apple
Computer and have begun discussion with them about how we can go about
making a Cree (and eventually other aboriginal languages) version of the
Macintosh system.

Because of the 'limited market' for this, the project will have to be
driven by volunteers (we might be able to get some funding from groups like
the AFN or - ugh - Indian Affairs, but I'm not counting on it).

So, I'd like to start bringing people in now. The biggest challenge I see
is going to be the translation. We need people with strong Cree language
skills (knowledge of multiple dialects a plus, and an understanding of
computers would be helpful).

If you know of anyone who has done work producing fonts of the Cree
Syllabics, please try to get them involved in this.

In addition to the areas listed above, there will be lots of other things
we'll need help with, so anyone with the slightest inclination to help is
more than welcome.

For those who may have concerns about it, this is not a 'make money for
Apple' project. The end result will be made available either freely or with
revenue going to support further work (such as translating other software
packages, and implementing support for other languages).

Personally, I think for these languages to survive, it's critical that
people be able to work in them.

(please pass this message on to others)

Grant Neufeld
grant@achilles.net
http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/

- --
grant@achilles.net  http://arpp.carleton.ca/  O-  <*>
 To find out about the Cree mailing list send a message to
 cree@arpp.carleton.ca with the subject set to the word: help
http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/  ki'htwa'm ka-wa'pamitina'wa'w


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1997 15:47:05 -0400
From: (suppressed)@quest.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: RE: Making computers that work in Cree

It is possible that we could help you out here at Stone Child College on the
Rocky Boy Indian Reservation in Montana. I don't know what dialect of Cree
that
they speak here.  However I must tell you that we use only IBM compatibles, 
actually my computer room has IBM Aptivas as of this summer. I have one
student that is working on a computer science degree at the University of
montana. His name is Dallas Sun Child. Dallas is doing an internship with HP
in Boise Idaho this summer.

Gerard Vandeberg
vandebergg@nmc1.nmclites.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1997 18:12:52 -0400
From: Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
Subject: New Cree Language Lesson posted

Another lesson from "A Cree Phrase Book" has been turned into HTML:

  Lesson 9: What are these or those? Who are these or those people?
  http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/lesson/9.html

The last section of the introduction to that book is now available, too:

  Sounds dropped in rapid speech
  http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/lesson/dropsound.html

- --
grant@achilles.net  http://arpp.carleton.ca/  O-  <*>
 To find out about the Cree mailing list send a message to
 cree@arpp.carleton.ca with the subject set to the word: help
http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/  ki'htwa'm ka-wa'pamitina'wa'w


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1997 18:32:33 -0400
From: Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
Subject: Re: Making computers that work in Cree

At 9:42 AM -0400 7/5/1997, uanet01@quest.oscs.montana.edu wrote:
>It is possible that we could help you out here at Stone Child College on the
>Rocky Boy Indian Reservation in Montana. I don't know what dialect of Cree
>that
>they speak here.

Any help with translations will be helpful and appreciated - there will be
a tonne of work to do with this.

>However I must tell you that we use only IBM compatibles,

This shouldn't be a problem. Once we've put together the translation
tables, they should be useful for 'Cree-ifying' more than just the
Macintosh.

I'm arranging with Apple to get their standard translation base tables.
Basically a list of terms and phrases used in the system. Our task will be
to fill in the Cree side of things. Basically, come up with Cree
translations of things like "File", "Undo", "Page Setup", "Memory", etc.,
as well as various phrases and messages (such as those that come up in
system alerts).

They've already done Language Kits for many languages, such as Mandarin,
Hebrew, Japanese, Korean, and Arabic, so presumably have a fairly well
defined system for doing this sort of work now.

- --
grant@achilles.net  http://arpp.carleton.ca/  O-  <*>
 To find out about the Cree mailing list send a message to
 cree@arpp.carleton.ca with the subject set to the word: help
http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/  ki'htwa'm ka-wa'pamitina'wa'w


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jul 1997 18:35:29 -0400
From: Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
Subject: Native American Genealogy Research mailing list

I've just come across a mailing list that discusses genealogy (a topic that
has come up here quite a number of times:

  INDIAN-ROOTS-L
  Native American Genealogy Research

to subscribe send a message to:
  maiser@rmgate.pop.indiana.edu
with the BODY (not the subject) of your message set to:
  subscribe INDIAN-ROOTS-L

mailto:maiser@rmgate.pop.indiana.edu?Body=subscribe%20INDIAN-ROOTS-L

- --
grant@achilles.net  http://arpp.carleton.ca/  O-  <*>
 To find out about the Cree mailing list send a message to
 cree@arpp.carleton.ca with the subject set to the word: help
http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/  ki'htwa'm ka-wa'pamitina'wa'w


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1997 01:06:27 -0400
From: (suppressed)@enter.net
Subject: Re: Louise Papatens Brown

Wachiya Thom,  I know it must be frustrating trying to
track your ancestrial name, and because you are a metis
you could almost have any French name. My sister in
law's husband is Objibwa and his name is Marcelais, 
and my cousin , who is Metis, name is Virginia Borderleau.
So trying to find a band affiliation/ location can be
very hard. There are Cree names that are very common,
like Cooper, Voyager, Moore, Isoroff, that can be traced
back to a white settler, and then there are names like,
Diamond, Ottereys, Blacksmith, all very common with
many of the people I know carrying those names. My Mother
is Maria Diamond, and my cousin is Billy Diamond, former
grand cheif of all the Crees in Quebec. There are Diamonds
spread out all over Quebec and into Ontario. 
  Your name is a familiar French name, but I do not know
of any Gadoury's in the Attibi region, where I am from.
I will try to help by asking . I am going home this 
month and I will check records and ask people on
my Reserve and nearby reserves.       Your friend
                                        Louise


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1997 01:17:15 -0400
From: (suppressed)@enter.net
Subject: Re: Making computers that work in Cree

Wachiya,  My family speaks Cree, I speak Algonquian
more than Cree, because my Father was Algonquian, my
Mother , Cree. 
  I will pass this information on to my cousin, Billy Diamond,
former chief of the Cree in Quebec, and also other
influential friends on my reseve and in the Abitibi
region where I am from. The language is as common in
Northern Quebec as English is here, and I know that
it is kept alive in the schools and family, but that
could all change with the encroachment of the white
world on this once isolated, and protected region.
   Hope to help in some simple way.    Louise Papatens Brown


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1997 11:37:01 -0400
From: (suppressed)@www.wtc.ccinet.ab.ca (Maskwachees Cultural College)
Subject: Making computers that work in Cree

We have produced a TrueType font for Cree syllabics, and have also added
Ojibway characters to produce an Ojibway font.  These fonts are available
for free download from the Maskwachees Cultural College home page at
http://www.maskwachees.ab.ca/files
As Syllabics are regarded here as a gift from the Creator (NOT from Peck or
Evans!) the College Elders have made it very clear that these fonts must be
used with respect and cannot be bought or sold.  If you have a need for a
Cree Syllabics font, please keep the wishes of our Elders in mind.

Peter Hyde
Dean, Technical & Contract Services
Maskwachees Cultural College
HOBBEMA, Alberta, Canada
T0C 1N0
peterh@www.wtc.ab.ca


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1997 13:02:34 -0400
From: Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
Subject: Re: Making computers that work in Cree

At 11:43 AM -0400 7/7/1997, Maskwachees Cultural College wrote:
>We have produced a TrueType font for Cree syllabics, and have also added
>Ojibway characters to produce an Ojibway font.  These fonts are available
>for free download from the Maskwachees Cultural College home page at
>http://www.maskwachees.ab.ca/files

Thanks!

>As Syllabics are regarded here as a gift from the Creator (NOT from Peck or
>Evans!) the College Elders have made it very clear that these fonts must be
>used with respect and cannot be bought or sold.  If you have a need for a
>Cree Syllabics font, please keep the wishes of our Elders in mind.

Certainly. The point of the project is to adapt computers to the Cree
language (and hopefully other aboriginal languages), not to make money.

I'd suggest you add a readme file to explain that when people download the
files.

>Peter Hyde
>Dean, Technical & Contract Services
>Maskwachees Cultural College
>HOBBEMA, Alberta, Canada

Thanks for pointing out your school. I've added a pointer to it at
http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/education.html

I'm also planning to order a copy of the Cree Language Tapes offered
through the bookstore there.

- --
grant@achilles.net  http://arpp.carleton.ca/  O-  <*>
 To find out about the Cree mailing list send a message to
 cree@arpp.carleton.ca with the subject set to the word: help
http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/  ki'htwa'm ka-wa'pamitina'wa'w


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 1997 14:58:34 -0400
From: Eric Brunner <(suppressed)@opengroup.org>
Subject: Re: Making computers that work in Cree


I have to confess that when I saw this subject line I bounced out of my
chair and fired off something ... it bounced as my address had changed,
sigh. In addition to the Cree list, I've cc'd several people who ought
to be "in the loop", or whom I'd like to pursuade to "loop in".

Grant,

Please let me know who at Apple you are dealing with for the i18n and l10n
("internationalization" and "localization", respectively, letter-counts in
the trade) project. The two I deal with on the Unicode and IETF-languages
mailing lists (for i18n stuff generally) are:
	 David Goldsmith <(suppressed)@apple.com>
and
	John H. Jenkins <(suppressed)@apple.com>

Another resource is Dirk Vermeulen (to whom I owe either a locale for UCAS:
	dirkverm@vaxxine.com
and Michael Everson (who can explain his own role):
	everson@indigo.ie

As we approach this ... making computers that work in Cree (and Siksika
and Dine and Iroquois and ... ) we are trying to do something that is an
industry in its own right (much of it in Ireland and India), which is to
make operating systems and applications capable of supporting multiple-
octet-encoded-characters (the 16 bit or 32 bit code points for the syllabic
elements, like other syllabaries with bigger markets (Korean), and also
building catalogs of translations of system and application messages.

PLUS -- in addition to being virtuously poor, we have Apple's i18n/l10n
model, the Windows/NT i18n/l10n model, and the Unix i18n/l10n model to
try and support. They are different, and the work for one will only be
partially applicable to either of the other two.

> I'm arranging with Apple to get their standard translation base tables.
> Basically a list of terms and phrases used in the system. Our task will be
> to fill in the Cree side of things. Basically, come up with Cree
> translations of things like "File", "Undo", "Page Setup", "Memory", etc.,
> as well as various phrases and messages (such as those that come up in
> system alerts).
> 
> They've already done Language Kits for many languages, such as Mandarin,
> Hebrew, Japanese, Korean, and Arabic, so presumably have a fairly well
> defined system for doing this sort of work now.

What you've described is localization -- xlate the message catalog from
Apple Cupertino English (ACE) into You Name It (YNI). Other issues are
how to input syllabics or diacritically-rich ASCII-like characters, how
to sort them, whether or not these characters can "appear" outside of a
file (like the name of the file), or just "inside" of a file, and how
to render/display the characters.

I agree that much of the standard translation base tables will be useful
to people doing l10n for the Window/NT and Unix (locale) l10n work. As I
only know the Unix i18n/l10n model (having "owned" the problem at SunSoft
and having made lots of HP-UX 10.x multi-byte "clean") this is the only
one I can offer sound technical advise on.

I've cc'd Dr. Vivian Ayoungman, who's work "Siksikai'powahsin" I think a
model worth emulating and Professor John O'Meara, Native Language Instructors'
Program at Lakehead University, and Dirk and Michael (UCAS & Unicode folks).

There are some "standards stuff" going on as well, so along the way to where
we all want to go (roman & syllabic-friendly computers) we (this list) ought
to list how many different Cree(s) there are which will require seperate
spellings or sort orders or other bits of difference that show up when the
language is "put on the computer".

Cheers all,
Eric

References:

    [CSA UCAS]
	 CSA - Proposed pDAM for Unified Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics 
	 Canadian Standards Association submission to ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 
	 http://www.indigo.ie/egt/standards/sl/n1441-en.html

    [ISO 639]
         ISO 639:1988 (E/F) - Code for the representation of names of
         languages - The International Organization for
         Standardization, 1st edition, 1988 17 pages Prepared by
         ISO/TC 37 - Terminology (principles and coordination).

    [ISO 3166]
         ISO 3166:1988 (E/F) - Codes for the representation of names
         of countries - The International Organization for
         Standardization, 3rd edition, 1988-08-15.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1997 08:58:45 -0400
From: (suppressed)@wsii.com (Peter  s Gadoury)
Subject: post cree indian reservations

Could some one please send a list of all the cree indian reservations there
are in north america
thanks
Thom Gadoury


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 1997 14:27:38 -0400
From: Grant Neufeld <(suppressed)@achilles.net>
Subject: Dallas/Ft.Worth area cherokee class

- --- begin forwarded text
Sender: NAT-LANG  Languages of Aboriginal Peoples
              <NAT-LANG@listserv.tamu.edu>

Original Sender: usplt@fhlb.com (Pat Talley)

The Tribal American Network, American Indian Institute and Mt. View
College are offering a nine-week Basic Cherokee Conversational Language
Course beginning in the early fall semester of 1997.   This course is
designed to familiarize students with the culture and historic spoken
language of the Cherokee people.  Tuition of $50 will include all
classroom instructions and additional classroom materials.  Registration
may be made to TAN, PO Box 542231, D/FW, TX  75354-2231 or to Mt. View
College, 4849 W. Illinois, Dallas, TX  75211, Attn: Cont. Ed Dept.  For
information call Frank McLemore 972-296-7400 or Sharon Glenn 214-860-8615.

- --- end forwarded text

- --
grant@achilles.net  http://arpp.carleton.ca/  O-  <*>
 To find out about the Cree mailing list send a message to
 cree@arpp.carleton.ca with the subject set to the word: help
http://arpp.carleton.ca/cree/  ki'htwa'm ka-wa'pamitina'wa'w


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jul 1997 17:19:57 -0400
From: "Aggelos Pouliasis" <(suppressed)@acropolis.net>
Subject: creation stories

I'm looking for everyone who knows about Cree's (or other tribal's) stories
of creation!


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 1997 01:02:02 -0400
From: (suppressed)@enter.net
Subject: Re: creation stories

Yes,   I am a Cree from Northern Quebec , and this
may seem odd to you, but a large majority of Crees
are Christian. They have their on ministers,
have camp meetings all summer long on all the reserves, 
and completely do not feel that they are following a 
white man's religion. You shall know the truth and the 
truth shall set you free. My Mother once was a woman of
native spiritualism. She has left it because
she found the Creator in a new way, a real way that is
not based on fear, spells, or spirits. Of course we do
not abandon the good of our tradition, but we as all
people, are seekers of the truth, and new revalation.
So she, and many other Crees, including the Grand Cheif
of the Crees, Mathew Coon Come, are Christians, but in
a unique Native way. My cousin, Billy Diamond, former 
Grand Cheif of the Crees , is also Christian, and we
believe in the Bible's account of creation.
    I know it is not the answer you were looking for.
But for that answer you would have to ask the elders
who still follow the old ways.........Louise Papatens Brown


----------------------------------------------------------------------

End of Digest