List-Header Digest Archive: December 1997

http://www.nisto.com/list-spec/mail/

X-List-Help: <http://www.nisto.com/listspec/mail/>, <mailto:list-header-request@list.nisto.com?Subject=help>
X-List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:list-header-request@list.nisto.com?Subject=unsubscribe>
X-List-Subscribe: <mailto:list-header-request@list.nisto.com?Subject=subscribe>
X-List-Archive: <http://www.nisto.com/listspec/mail/#Digest>
X-List-Post: <mailto:list-header@list.nisto.com>
X-List-Owner: <mailto:listmom@list.nisto.com?Subject=List-Header%20List>

Contents:

-> Handling of nested lists and other list-header suggested changes
     by Jacob Palme <(suppressed)@dsv.su.se>
-> Re: Handling of nested lists and other list-header suggested changes
     by James Berriman <(suppressed)@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk>
-> Re: Handling of nested lists and other list-header suggested changes
     by Jacob Palme <(suppressed)@dsv.su.se>


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Date: 28 Dec 1997 13:12:23 -0700
From: Jacob Palme <(suppressed)@dsv.su.se>
Subject: Handling of nested lists and other list-header suggested changes

Here are some suggested changes to draft-baer-listspec-01.txt.

3.1 List-Help, first paragraph

Current text:

Typically, the URL specified would request the help file for the list
or a web page with list instructions. Of all the header fields, this
one is the most likely candidate to include an http URL, since a web
page can be used to provide a lot more information about the list, as
well as a form interface for command access.

Comment:

Plain text and HTML (=web page) are two formats for documents.
Documents in both formats can be sent via either SMTP or HTTP. (There
is an IETF standard, MHTML, RFC 2110, on sending HTML in e-mail, and
the major developers of e-mail software already support or will soon
support this.)

Suggested new text:

typically, the URL specified would request a help file for the list.
The help file may include a form to use to perform various actions on
the list. This form is preferably given in HTML format. Since some
mailers do not support HTML, the multipart/alternative format with a
plain text as the first alternative and a HTML form as the second
alternative is recommended. Since users giving this command typically
want to get the response immediately, in order to act on it, this is
the header field which is most useful to provide an http URL for.
- --- --- ---
2 The command syntax, fourth paragraph

Current text:

However, systems using such syntaxes may still take advantage of the
List-Help field to provide the user with detailed instructions as
needed or - perhaps more usefully - provide access to some form of
structured command interface such as a web based form.

Comment:

"web based form" is vague. Do you mean "HTML form"?

Suggested new text:

However, systems using such syntaxes may still take advantage of the
List-Help field to provide the user with detailed instructions as
needed or - perhaps more usefully - provide access to some form of
structured command interface such as form created using HTML and/or
Java and/or Javascript.
- --- --- ---
3.5 List-Owner

Comment: List-Owner must be split into List-Owner and List-Moderator,
because these can be different people.

Add a new clause "List-Moderator" and change the text as follows:

3.5. List-Owner

The List-Owner field identifies the path to contact a human
administrator for the list. The address may be that of a list
administrator, mail system administrator, or any other person who can
handle user contact for the administration of list. There is no need to
specify List-Owner if it is the same person as the mail system
administrator (postmaster).

   Examples:

    List-Owner: <mailto:listadm@host.com>
    List-Owner: <mailto:grant@foo.bar>
    List-Owner: <mailto:josh@foo.bar?Subject=list>

3.6. List-Moderator

The List-Moderator field identifies the path to contact a human
moderator for the list. A moderator is a person who takes some
responsibility for the content of a list. For some lists, all
submissions have to be approved by the moderator.

   Examples:

    List-Moderator: <mailto:listmod@host.com>
    List-Moderator: <mailto:grant@foo.bar>
    List-Moderator: <mailto:josh@foo.bar?Subject=list>

- --- --- ---
Add new subchapter between subchapter 3 and subchapter 4 with the
following text:

4. Replacing existing header fields?

Mailing lists may be nested, for example as shown by the following
figure:

                                    +------------------+
- -->--input of new contributions-->--| top mailing list |
                                    +------+-----------+
                                           |
          +------------------+-------------+----+
          |                  |                  |
+---------+--------+    +----+----+    +--------+----------+
| indivudal member |    | sublist |    | individual member |
+------------------+    +---------+    +-------------------+
                             |
          +------------------+----------------------+
          |                  |                      |
+---------+--------+    +----+-------+    +---------+---------+
| indivudal member |    | subsublist |    | individual member |
+------------------+    +------------+    +-------------------+

When lists are nested in this way, both the top mailing list and the
sublists might want to add "List-" header fields, and the recipient
will then get messages with multiple such fields not knowing which of
them to use. To avoid confusion, the following rules SHOULD be adhered
on what to do when a mailing list expanders gets a message which
already has the field which the expander wants to add.

Header field       Action           Why

List-Help          Replace the      The most important information
                   existing field   is how to unsubscribe, and the
                                    user is directly subscribed to
                                    the bottom list. Information
                                    about the top list can be
                                    copied by the sublist into its
                                    help file.

List-Subscribe     Replace the      The user most probably wants
                   existing field   to subscribe to the sublist
                                    which the message came from.

List-Unsubscribe   Replace the      The user is subscribed to the
                   existing field   sublist.

List-Post          Do not add       New submissions must be sent
                   this field if    to the top list to get to all
                   it is already    recipients of all the
                   there            sublists, which is by far the
                                    most common way nested mailing
                                    lists are used.

List-Owner         Replace the      Users most often want to
                   existing field   discuss subscription matters,
                                    which are handled by the owner
                                    of the sublist they are
                                    subscribed to.

List-Moderator     Do not add       The moderator of the topmost
                   this field if    list is usually responsible
                   it is already    for the content also of the
                   there            sublists.

List-Archive       Replace this     If the sublist provides an
                   field            archive, this archive is
                                    usually closer to the user
                                    than the archive of a higher-
                                    level list.
- --- --- ---
Section 4. Security considerations

Remove second paragraph, since this is handled by the new section 4
proposed above.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob Palme <(suppressed)@dsv.su.se> (Stockholm University and KTH)
for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/~jpalme


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Date: 29 Dec 1997 08:15:50 -0700
From: James Berriman <(suppressed)@frutiger.staffs.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Handling of nested lists and other list-header suggested changes

At 18:01 28/12/97, Jacob Palme wrote:
>Here are some suggested changes to draft-baer-listspec-01.txt.

>Comment:
>
>Plain text and HTML (=web page) are two formats for documents.
>Documents in both formats can be sent via either SMTP or HTTP. (There
>is an IETF standard, MHTML, RFC 2110, on sending HTML in e-mail, and
>the major developers of e-mail software already support or will soon
>support this.)

Thanks for the pointer (rfc2110). I've been thinking along the same lines
for some time.

I use AutoShare, which allows users to submit commands via HTML forms
(using a mailto: action). The missing piece in the puzzle is embedding the
HTML form into the help file reliably.

( :-])  James


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Date: 29 Dec 1997 13:31:15 -0700
From: Jacob Palme <(suppressed)@dsv.su.se>
Subject: Re: Handling of nested lists and other list-header suggested changes

At 15.10 +0000 97-12-29, James Berriman wrote:
> Thanks for the pointer (rfc2110). I've been thinking along the same lines
> for some time.
>
> I use AutoShare, which allows users to submit commands via HTML forms
> (using a mailto: action). The missing piece in the puzzle is embedding the
> HTML form into the help file reliably.

No one today can really realize all the possibilities with sending HTML
in e-mail. It will mean lots of new possibillities, including lots
of possibillities, unfortunately, for spammers.

HTML in e-mail is useful to simplify communication with servers which you
reach via e-mail, that is why I proposed it as a format for what you
get when you perform the List-Help URL.

HTML will allow putting all the List-headers into the text of messages,
but I think the solution this group is working on is better; E-mail
software in the future may "know" which lists a user subscribes to,
and have built-in commands for unsubscribing. E-mail software may
also have built in connections to directory systems of mailing lists,
or build its own such directory from List-Subscribe entries, so that
the e-mail software will allow a user to browse mailing lists and
subscribe to them as easily as you can browse newsgroups and subscribe
to them in a newsreader.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob Palme <(suppressed)@dsv.su.se> (Stockholm University and KTH)
for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/~jpalme


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